Curse

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

1) When I see a post from the Leader of Blood Eagle, that they are no longer playing GW because pvp sucks now, then I'll be worried, but not now.

I am Dac the Hork

*former*
Leader of Blood Eagle
Alpha Tester
Player of Guildwars

also knowledge of guilds quiting is first hand information...

check www.guild-hall.net for the remainder of Guild members and look at the attitude there.

Louis Ste Colombe · Aug 03, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

I loved medieval Total war because of the epic battles you could zoom in on etc

so awesome seeing a cavalry charge... The turned based strategy part was okay too.... It was good mix that allowed both, for instance online or instant action you could play with every unit and combination without touching the turned based or vice versa.

aka

we want to put the "play" back in Play guildwars.

It is discouraging to see teams and teams of people that love pvp leaving because of the huge time investment... no one wants to spend 600 hours

It's interesting you mention the Total War series...

As you mention, SP and MP were split, and nearly all units were available for MP right from the beginning. There was nothing to unlock.

Oddly enough, most of the best players thought it was the greatest hurdle for beginners to overcome. The variety of units available made it very tough for beginners to pick competitive armies. Most of the top players thinking about modding the game for competition were hinting 10-15 units instead of hundreds...
For GW, that would mean; if you really want competitive PvP, then accept an UAS with 50 skills around. Chances are it will be more balanced and less abused.

It took hundreds of battles to become competitive in Total War... Hundreds of hours... You could spend those 600 hours in Medieval, and you'd still be smashed by the vets with no idea what happened to you. If anything, Medieval was hardly a game for a casual gamer if looking at competitive MP.

Another interesting point you may want to learn from Total War: there too community was split, and there too elite players left after some beta testing stories...

That somehow to be expected when players / testers think they are game designers.

Louis,

Loviatar · Aug 03, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

I am Dac the Hork

*former*
Leader of Blood Eagle
Alpha Tester
Player of Guildwars

also knowledge of guilds quiting is first hand information...

check www.guild-hall.net for the remainder of Guild members and look at the attitude there.

are you actually that person named or are you making a statement from another source?

Reiden Argrock · Aug 03, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

I am Dac the Hork

*former*
Leader of Blood Eagle
Alpha Tester
Player of Guildwars

also knowledge of guilds quiting is first hand information...

check www.guild-hall.net for the remainder of Guild members and look at the attitude there.

o....
I think i'll go hide in a corner and wimper then

no more posts for me...

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

It's interesting you mention the Total War series...

As you mention, SP and MP were split, and nearly all units were available for MP right from the beginning. There was nothing to unlock.

Oddly enough, most of the best players thought it was the greatest hurdle for beginners to overcome. The variety of units available made it very tough for beginners to pick competitive armies. Most of the top players thinking about modding the game for competition were hinting 10-15 units instead of hundreds...
For GW, that would mean; if you really want competitive PvP, then accept an UAS with 50 skills around. Chances are it will be more balanced and less abused.

It took hundreds of battles to become competitive in Total War... Hundreds of hours... You could spend those 600 hours in Medieval, and you'd still be smashed by the vets with no idea what happened to you. If anything, Medieval was hardly a game for a casual gamer if looking at competitive MP.

Another interesting point you may want to learn from Total War: there too community was split, and there too elite players left after some beta testing stories...

That somehow to be expected when players / testers think they are game designers.

Louis,

False analogy but I will still give you my time..

Basically the diference is that, the best of the best have access to everything, new players have acces to 15 skills.

This is a little different. The playing field is not even. A high skilled player with 15 skills will lose every time, and also is not good guild material (no flexibility).

Unfortunately they are different games and your analogy falls a little short.

Because the biggest deterence to GW PVP is the grind :\

also I like your theory on the best players being mad, but it is not just the best players :\ It is 95% of pvpers ;\

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

are you actually that person named or are you making a statement from another source?

lol Im actually that person, it is pretty clear if you check other boards that it is indeed Dac the Hork ;\....

I dont think I am special though, i just care a lot about PvP, and people are finally listening.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

lol Im actually that person, it is pretty clear if you check other boards that it is indeed Dac the Hork ;\....

I dont think I am special though, i just care a lot about PvP, and people are finally listening.

Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to throw a quick apology for coming down on any PvPers for their whining (as I called it)... on reflection I really don't have the perspective to constructively criticize a position I've never really been in. Post-release, 5 total PvP matches (3 victories!) in the Droknar arena, that's it. Being primarily PvE only (but willing to change), some of the arguments ut forth by the PvP crowd don't make a lot of sense to me... but that just means they don't make a lot of sense to me and doesn't reflect on their validity.

'Nuff said. Go play.

Kishin · Aug 03, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

1) Vocal Minority refers to people who post on the forum, if you think the majority of people who play Guild Wars are registered on a forum, you are not thinking straight. I imagine A-net gets just as many or more, requests/suggestions from player email, and reports as they can pull out of all the wars that happen on the forums. Those of us that do post on forums, are a vocal minority, and should not think otherwise.

A.Net has always directed its players to post on fansite forums regarding their gripes and praises. I would think they've directed a good portion of their attention toward them, that said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

2) Several top guilds have left the game? ok, I guess I can believe this, except half of the guilds listed I have seen winning hall of heroes in the past 2 weeks, so maybe their ripoff guilds, but who am I to say. And who are you to say they have quit? Do you know them all personally, perhaps they stopped playing for some other reason, maybe other guilds were not putting up enough competition, maybe they found out after ton's of hard work, that other top ranked guilds were buying their guild rating. When I see a post from the Leader of Blood Eagle, that they are no longer playing GW because pvp sucks now, then I'll be worried, but not now.

Actually, many of them announced the reasoning behind why they're no longer playing on the Guild-Hall, if you'd like to take a look at the threads over there. Kunt0r mentioned Nu breaking up, for example. Blood Eagle hasn't GvGed in over 2 months, and their former leader posted as much on the Guild-hall (http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...ht=Blood+Eagle)

Furthermore Guild-hall Messenger = Dac the Hork from TGH = Former leader of Blood Eagle. I think he's qualified to talk about his own guild.

Maybe now you should be worried. I certainly haven't seen half those guild win the HoH recently. Tombs being the festering pit that is, many top guilds don't even bother with it anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

3) you want increased faction, thats fine, I like the faction system, I know of no other game that even gives you the option to skip straight to the fun stuff, even though alot of people even complain that pvp is a grind...People will never be happy, unless they are #1 and have perfect equipment, and 100% unlocked, but then they will be bored and complain for more content, so it's never ending is it. Faction does make it easier for pvp only players to unlock stuff. Faction is good, and you want more, ok.

It's a good idea, unfortunately, it requires triple the amount of time spent in PvE to unlock things via faction.

Also, can we please cut it with the "Everyone wants unlocks so they can be #1?" argument? People are more interested in having a full set of tools available to them so they can build as they see fit. Furthermore, unlocking is a small slice of the pie that is the current issues in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

4) spirit spamming does need fixed, but this is just another new discovery, like Vengeance and the other overly powerful skills, and it will be fixed. If all these alpha/beta testers are so smart and experienced, then I don't see why they would quit because of a recent development by the players.

Except a lot of skill issues aren't new; they were pointed out in beta by testers. Furthermore, a lot of the alpha didn't quit, they were booted from testing by A.Net, many after replying to an email that asked them if they wished to continue testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

This just seems like another attempt to bash a-net because their trying to give us new free content, while making fixes on a regular basis, but for some reason, they won't make you an elite, and so your unhappy. If I am wrong about this, I'm sorry, try not to sound like a troll.

Please, point out to me where the bashing in this thread exists, as it was started as a civil list of complaints, and pretty much has maintained civility throughout. But then again, I'm starting to believe that anytime someone posts a complaint about GW, its immediately labeled 'bashing' and subjected to a barrage of flames.

Try not to sound like a troll yourself, as that above paragraph is the most trollish statement in this thread. Thanks for bringing it down to the level we're all used to.

And free content? Forgive me that I'm not jumping up and down for two new Explorable Areas that people will tear apart and cover every inch of in three days. Are they pretty? Hell yes. Are they necessary? No. Fix what you have first before you start bringing in the new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiden Argrock

edit: nobody wants to spend 600 hours what? playing the game, taking down other players? Having fun with their guild? It's only a grind if your only goal is to unlock everything, and you look at pvp as "road of grind" to get there. If you look at pvp as having fun, then I don't see how anyone could be complaining.

The only goal isn't to unlock everything. The desire with unlocks is primarily to have all the tools available so to be able to play how you desire. How much fun do you think it is for members of a guild to be told that they can't participate in a GvG or a Tombs run because they don't have the right skills to fulfill a role in the teams build? I'd imagine not very. I play in a Guild with several of my closest friends, some of whom I've known for more than half my life. I don't want to have to do that to them, and I shouldn't have to just to be competitive.

Bottom line: It isn't having fun if you're so tightly constrained on what you can and can't do.

Lastly, you completely ignored the fact that this thread is also centered on PvP balance issues, not just unlocks, which are actually even more key.
The better PvP is balanced, and the more accessible the tools are to participate in it, the moe people will participate and have fun. Top guilds aren't interesting in hogging it all for themselves, they WANT other people to take a crack at it, that's how you generate good competition and how everyone enjoys themselves. Now, I'm certainly not a member of a top guild, but I feel that anything that breaks down entry barriers to PvP for PvE players is a good thing, and -All- of these suggestions certainly will help in doing that.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 03, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

well I did love you guys in the first few weeks of the game, Dac. It was sure nice to see america own

But heres what I really gotta say:

Played 900 Hours
1/3 of All Runes Unlocked
~300 Skills Unlocked
2 Characters beat the game
6 PvE Chars made
3 Deleted

And my point is, I see other people with lower times have more, and some with higher times have less. I personally dont think it matters what your age is, its more on the ammount of time you litterally spent on trying to unlock. My warrior has 11029 deaths from pvping all day, [random arenas suck, mainly because nobody wants to work together and doesnt bring any form of ressurection and theres about 1 monk per 10 groups, but its the only way for a warrior to get a party within 30 mins] so I havent spent much time on unlocking things. I've been content with a near-fully unlocked Warrior and Monk. And thats all I can do. I have only a few skills from other classes. The only other builds I can actually do is a IW warrior, Summoner and a Water Elem. Otherwise I dont even have enough skills to make a good build...

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

And free content? Forgive me that I'm not jumping up and down for two new Explorable Areas that people will tear apart and cover every inch of in three days. Are they pretty? Hell yes. Are they necessary? No. Fix what you have first before you start bringing in the new.

Just my 2cents... but shouldn't we see what they release before we tear apart the release before it's released, releasing anger on a non-released release?

I'm very sorry about that.

Xellos · Aug 03, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

To be fair, grabbing the skills shouldn't take that much time. Assuming you have 3 PVE characters, which means you divide the 6 professions into primary and secondary, you should have roughly 70-80% of the skills if not all of them by the end of 2-3 months depending on how much you play. This applies to players that are competitive though on PVP.

I think that while PVP needs improvement, I have never been really supportive of the grind or UAS. Grind is scalable, you compare this game to any other rpg, it's grind is too small to be called grind. You compare it to a PVP game like counter strike or starcraft, the grind is enourmous. But heck, the grind shouldn't be there, why? Because the grind should've been fun in the first place. Upping the faction is up to Anet, I think tombs and arena give too little in comparison to GvG, which can net you up to 500 even in a couple of minutes if your lucky. But the main thing is, make PVE replayable. Rather then just let the damn ship sink, just fix it. Everyone talks about not wanting to play the game three times. I'm one of those people who have beat the game three times, did all that crap that I don't want to do over and over. So I'm in a sense a sucker, but I still think it's not too late to fix PVE and PVP.

As far as PVP goes, I don't believe anyone can disagree when I say tombs is somewhat in shambles. While people claim Spirit Spam is unbeatable, other trends had that example too. What makes Spirit Spam different though, is that it's defensive based, not offensive based like Air or Smite. If Anet wasn't lazy and truely just being cautious, then they'd wait til August at most before putting in some improvement. NR isn't that lame, and isn't even "abused" by most teams, though it's still overpowered in a sense because teams will still make their build around it. For tombs? NR has no real advantage other then what we know as a global rend, which might be a bit too powerful. But it has no more advantage for tombs then it does for gvg. Fertile Seasons though, is the big problem. If no one can counter this by the time August rolls around, it should at least be confirmed by Anet that this is being looked at and a solution is coming up asap. But most importantly, things like a web profile, in-depth statistics, more PVP ladders such as one for tombs, one for a CTF, one for gvg, stuff like that which would make PVP more variable and more replayable. GvG is still the best and many still believe it can give some decent action, despite all the limited action we already see. It's ridiculous how the competition arenas haven't been given any specific reward, or how there isn't more things to do in PVP. The game is meant for ALL players, hardcore, super casual, casual, you name it. What good is it if your only generally accepted quality PVP is something that requires a good amount of thinking and time and people to be on? While I won't assume how Anet is losing customers, I personally know at least 50 people who left this game because of it. That's 50 people from my end alone who won't buy the expansion.

PVE wise, the game is truely in shambles. No ones giving a damn about it as far as PVP players go, but the fact is, the core design wants PVP to rely on PVE, and PVE to rely on PVP to a certain extent. Alot of players rather just shove them seperately, but Anets already gone this far, their not going to revamp the game just for a gamble. But what I haven't seen is replayability. Anet's doing the exact same thing most MMORPGs do, release more content. What happens to the OLD content? Well, no one gives a damn. Let's extrapolate if this continues to happen for a year or two. What will happen to all those missions, the world, and all the "old pve parts"? They'd be thrown away, or ignored by most players. Seriously, who the hell plays thunderhead keep just for fun? Fact is, almost all of the PVE missions blow in the long run. And since Anet wants the game to be PVE and PVP, they better make PVE replayable. Where is all the "advantages of instance"? Where is the "streaming tech" that allowed the damn fireworks to go off during the end of beta? This is the stuff that people want, maybe a 1 week mission where you get a instance copy of Lions Arch getting invaded, instant fun for awhile. Work with the stuff you have, because content also means quality, not quantity. And right now, PVE content lacks quality.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Xellos... how exactly would something like the PvE world as it is become "replayable"? I think I need to better understand what you're asking for, if that's ok.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

To be fair, grabbing the skills shouldn't take that much time. Assuming you have 3 PVE characters, which means you divide the 6 professions into primary and secondary, you should have roughly 70-80% of the skills if not all of them by the end of 2-3 months depending on how much you play. This applies to players that are competitive though on PVP.

I think that while PVP needs improvement, I have never been really supportive of the grind or UAS. Grind is scalable, you compare this game to any other rpg, it's grind is too small to be called grind. You compare it to a PVP game like counter strike or starcraft, the grind is enourmous. But heck, the grind shouldn't be there, why? Because the grind should've been fun in the first place. Upping the faction is up to Anet, I think tombs and arena give too little in comparison to GvG, which can net you up to 500 even in a couple of minutes if your lucky. But the main thing is, make PVE replayable. Rather then just let the damn ship sink, just fix it. Everyone talks about not wanting to play the game three times. I'm one of those people who have beat the game three times, did all that crap that I don't want to do over and over. So I'm in a sense a sucker, but I still think it's not too late to fix PVE and PVP.

As far as PVP goes, I don't believe anyone can disagree when I say tombs is somewhat in shambles. While people claim Spirit Spam is unbeatable, other trends had that example too. What makes Spirit Spam different though, is that it's defensive based, not offensive based like Air or Smite. If Anet wasn't lazy and truely just being cautious, then they'd wait til August at most before putting in some improvement. NR isn't that lame, and isn't even "abused" by most teams, though it's still overpowered in a sense because teams will still make their build around it. For tombs? NR has no real advantage other then what we know as a global rend, which might be a bit too powerful. But it has no more advantage for tombs then it does for gvg. Fertile Seasons though, is the big problem. If no one can counter this by the time August rolls around, it should at least be confirmed by Anet that this is being looked at and a solution is coming up asap. But most importantly, things like a web profile, in-depth statistics, more PVP ladders such as one for tombs, one for a CTF, one for gvg, stuff like that which would make PVP more variable and more replayable. GvG is still the best and many still believe it can give some decent action, despite all the limited action we already see. It's ridiculous how the competition arenas haven't been given any specific reward, or how there isn't more things to do in PVP. The game is meant for ALL players, hardcore, super casual, casual, you name it. What good is it if your only generally accepted quality PVP is something that requires a good amount of thinking and time and people to be on? While I won't assume how Anet is losing customers, I personally know at least 50 people who left this game because of it. That's 50 people from my end alone who won't buy the expansion.

PVE wise, the game is truely in shambles. No ones giving a damn about it as far as PVP players go, but the fact is, the core design wants PVP to rely on PVE, and PVE to rely on PVP to a certain extent. Alot of players rather just shove them seperately, but Anets already gone this far, their not going to revamp the game just for a gamble. But what I haven't seen is replayability. Anet's doing the exact same thing most MMORPGs do, release more content. What happens to the OLD content? Well, no one gives a damn. Let's extrapolate if this continues to happen for a year or two. What will happen to all those missions, the world, and all the "old pve parts"? They'd be thrown away, or ignored by most players. Seriously, who the hell plays thunderhead keep just for fun? Fact is, almost all of the PVE missions blow in the long run. And since Anet wants the game to be PVE and PVP, they better make PVE replayable. Where is all the "advantages of instance"? Where is the "streaming tech" that allowed the damn fireworks to go off during the end of beta? This is the stuff that people want, maybe a 1 week mission where you get a instance copy of Lions Arch getting invaded, instant fun for awhile. Work with the stuff you have, because content also means quality, not quantity. And right now, PVE content lacks quality.

nice post

and I agree with you...

I have offered suggestions in the past, replayable PVE maps..

For instance

Defend the Temple : It is basically the entrance to tombs with harder and harder mobs coming. For instance your team of 8 must guard a King, and monsters attack, after 15 minutes if you still live you get some cool drops and finish the mission.

But the replayability is the randomization. RNG (random number generators) used to create monsters so they are not stagnat and boring.

Currently every single monster is specifically placed on the map and most missions play the same way everytime, no randomness. This predictability creates repitition.

They need NON Linear maps (non storyline), much like FOW and UW but with randomness implemented.

Along with MINI gamish PVE maps with objectives and strategies with a lil RNG thrown in. For instance

Defend the temple : defend for 15 minutes

Caravan : Escort a caravan across a map with random events, and random difficulty (aka one time it can be moderate, the next time insane)

Assault: Assault an enemy base to get at some rare runes, RNG creates random events.

This is the kind of thing they need, but they are not creative or daring at all..

They need to start pushing the envolope instead of turning into a crappy EQ.

Lots of people call me a harsh critic or a crybaby. But all I want is a quality game :\ I am not an "anti rpg" PVP freak. I enjoy RPGs such as Fallout 2, Planescape torment etc.

the RPG currently in GW consists of going through the same hurdle over and over to compete a mission..

how many times can you fight, 2 warrior 1 monk, 1 ranger, monster group till you realize, I want something exciting!

that is why we like PVP :\

everone says "be happy with what you get, feel glad arena.net made a game"

and I personally think its a crummy attitude that kills the potential of GW :\

It really is a shame every thread you can make about suggestions, about changes is met with "LIKE THE GAME THE WAY IT IS OR LEAVE"

It is called feedback and suggestions, it is why I used to be in the closed alpha.

It is not playing "designer".

Loviatar · Aug 03, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Xellos... how exactly would something like the PvE world as it is become "replayable"? I think I need to better understand what you're asking for, if that's ok.

just a small random thought

perhaps after you did a quest you might get a different version of it or a totally different quest and when you did it the next time (all with different secondaries maybe) the same changes

just a bit of variety pehaps?

edit

god i hate fast typers whose hands dont hurt

Crimson_1190 · Aug 03, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

okay for once you and I agree

That would be nice. I have been thinking along those lines too. Maybe that is why I love going to fissure and UW....Those kinds of quests would be nice. More quests outside of towns, things that prevent people from mapping back for the reward. maybe some with time limits

have to save the caravan before it gets overrun...stochastically driven events....

Xellos · Aug 03, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Xellos... how exactly would something like the PvE world as it is become "replayable"? I think I need to better understand what you're asking for, if that's ok.

Besides examples GHM posted, why don't you just think about anything that could make the current PVE replayable. It's a general concept, and I'm not going to get into specifics unless I get paid. I'm not ensign, I won't do detailed work and give them blueprints ^_^ the game engines limited I know that, but that's where improvisation is. Guild Wars is a fake rpg, period. You can't defend that statement based on how the engine works on bumpmapping/railpathing etc etc. All the amazing promises like destroyable enviroment or multiple ways of finishing a mission are either impossible to do or require many many months to work on. That's why the game's not really respected by most of the outside online gaming community. If you aren't hypnotized, looking at it from a outsiders POV, you can easily tell the pixels in WoW are real, and GW is just carbon copies bumpmapped to hell. Abeit a very well bump map, but none the less unbreakable making it less fun.

The real thing I'd really be curious about is whether or not Anet plays their own games. Sure Gaile Gray plays, but she has that reputation of ahem, not being very fair in beta testing, and she's near 100% PVE. I want to know if the dev team has anyone as zealous as guys like Bill Roper then, and actually compete in PVP or take part in the game world. No IGNs needed, just a yes or no whether or not the game has been seen from a players view. If their hiring players to give input, clearly your workers plain suck. Guys like Ensign, Ace, Rex, even I could do a hundred times better just by sleeping in half the day. Perspective and Perception is key, which is what Anet might be lacking.

Louis Ste Colombe · Aug 03, 2005, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

False analogy but I will still give you my time..

Basically the diference is that, the best of the best have access to everything, new players have acces to 15 skills.

This is a little different. The playing field is not even. A high skilled player with 15 skills will lose every time, and also is not good guild material (no flexibility).

Unfortunately they are different games and your analogy falls a little short.

Because the biggest deterence to GW PVP is the grind :\

also I like your theory on the best players being mad, but it is not just the best players :\ It is 95% of pvpers ;\

Hum.... beside "your analogy falls short", I have not seen a real rebutal of why it falls short.

Even playing field? Hey, you can give access to all the skills to beginners, that's not going to help them a bit! Rather the opposite! Chances are, with all skills available, a real beginner will build something even worse than the prebuild.

Skill comes with time, I don't believe there is a single skilled player with only 15 skills... To be skilled you got to play, and while playing you unlock "ingame skills".
Also, I think someone who has played hundred of hours of PvE or PvP with a pre build will kick any beginner with access to all the skills.

Let's face it; just like in TW, whether you got everything handed to you (TW style), or you got to unlock skills/units 5GW style), chances are you'll need hundred of hours of battles to be competitive.

I'd not say the best players were mad; they just thought they were game designers... Being a tester just mean that; you test what developpers want you to test, and you leave it there. If they want your opinion during a test, they'll ask for it, otherwise don't assume they want to hear about it: what they want to hear about is; "is that change working as designed", and that's it. Humility and literacy are testers most needed quality.
Testers that think they are designers are only going to be frustrated.

By the way, I don't believe 95% of PvPers are leaving. Not a second. How do you back up that number?

Louis,

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 03, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Ste Colombe

Hum.... beside "your analogy falls short", I have not seen a real rebutal of why it falls short.

Even playing field? Hey, you can give access to all the skills to beginners, that's not going to help them a bit! Rather the opposite! Chances are, with all skills available, a real beginner will build something even worse than the prebuild.

Skill comes with time, I don't believe there is a single skilled player with only 15 skills... To be skilled you got to play, and while playing you unlock "ingame skills".
Also, I think someone who has played hundred of hours of PvE or PvP with a pre build will kick any beginner with access to all the skills.

Let's face it; just like in TW, whether you got everything handed to you (TW style), or you got to unlock skills/units 5GW style), chances are you'll need hundred of hours of battles to be competitive.

I'd not say the best players were mad; they just thought they were game designers... Being a tester just mean that; you test what developpers want you to test, and you leave it there. If they want your opinion during a test, they'll ask for it, otherwise don't assume they want to hear about it: what they want to hear about is; "is that change working as designed", and that's it. Humility and literacy are testers most needed quality.
Testers that think they are designers are only going to be frustrated.

By the way, I don't believe 95% of PvPers are leaving. Not a second. How do you back up that number?

Louis,

Okay I will address one point I have knowledege of.

the first build somoeone makes, will usually be pretty bad. This is why they need UAS, so they can switch up and Learn what each and every skill does over time. It does increase the speed at which you learn skills when you have access to all of them.

I actually have firsthand experience, going from a limited set to Unlock all, (Alpha testing) and learned so much so fast it was ridiculous. I literraly have knowledge and almost memorization of each and every skill, effects and all.

I can back it up by linking to www.guild-hall.net and check the PVP is dead and Rebuttal to Arena.net thread.

Also view some of the polls.

Also you learn so much faster when you can change your build, most people will hear about "air spiker build is fun and good", but will now have to start a new elementalist to start getting those skills.

Quick change allows quick learning.

Also with access to all skills the best players can actually post templates for new players to try. I have posted templates before but no one can actually run the build :\

Sammiel · Aug 03, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Really I think the best option would be to slash the faction cost down a bit and up some of the rewards for non-GvG play. Probably a good compromise would be doubling arena awards and making the HoH rewards triple what they are currently. Along with that probably halving most of the costs and reducing elite costs to a thid would be enough.

Realistically I don't think you ever would need to shoot for having all the skills unlocked as a PvPer. Rather, you would want a bank with enough points to buy a new build outright. Discounting runes/mods, this currently requires about (1k * 7 + 3k) 10,000 faction points. That represents about 30 or so guild matches in the worst case. Which I think we all agree is too much. Modifying it as I proposed would drop it to (.5k * 7 + 1k) 4.5k. Which is a more reasonable 12-13 matches or less depending on rewards. Now the bulk of those skills, if you were simply going for unlocks, would be non-elites and the many could be gotten by LA, which is a pretty short commitment, even doing it with 3 characters to get the basic skills for all 6 classes. Also, the numbers above are dependent on a player not having ANY of the skills unlocked. Over time the cost would drop down signifigantly as the player fills out the normal skills. Even just grinding the normal skills out isn't too horrendous. With SoCs and just buying skills I think a player can get the bulk on non-elites by Sanctum Cay. I think that would be a fairly reasonable tweak, at least for unlocks. If need be the numbers could be tweaked somewhat, but I donno that as drastic a reduction as 1/10 is needed.

MSecorsky · Aug 03, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Actually, the stuff GHM mentioned hit like a meteor of common sense... those would be awesome ideas if implemented. Great fun, too... the added unknown factor would indeed be a nice boost. Sounds like something we'd definitely have to wait for a full expansion to see implemented though... the coding sounds pretty heavy.

Imagine NPCs found outside of towns that give assorted highly difficult quests, spawn randomly on the entire map, and may not even be where you found them origininally? Heh heh... turn off the guide arrow for these ones... Something like "Tepid Chillybuns killed my entire family, avange me!", where TC could also spawn randomly anywhere on the map (you just stumble across him, and only if you have the quest), get a superior rune (for example) by killing him, and if you happen to find the guy that gave you the quest your reward could be to unlock any unlocked skill (for your professions).

OK, now I'm thinking outside the box.

This is not necessarily bad.